Quest mechanic idea: "Pedestrian Resistant Quest"

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Quest mechanic idea: "Pedestrian Resistant Quest"

Postby MedicineStorm » Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:07 am

We've all agreed that this game should be greater than just a series of battles. Role playing is more than Damage Per Second. Playing the detective, deciphering riddles, and solving puzzles of all forms is a great way to break the mold. Unfortunately, most quests of these kinds have the same solution each play-through. Some examples:
  • In Mario RPG, accessing king Calamari's chamber involved several riddles who's answers spelled out the password that opened the door. However, anyone who has already completed this part before needn't go through each component of the riddle since they already know the password is <SPOILER ALERT: highlight text></SPOILER ALERT>$1
  • In Might & Magic 6, getting into the deepest parts of the Goblinwatch Fortress involve pressing lettered buttons that each open and close a different pair of doors. The only way to proceed is to press the buttons in the proper sequence. However, anyone who has solved the logic puzzle before doesn't need to work through it again since they probably remember the sequence from last time... or worse! Just looked up the answer in a walkthrough online.$1
  • In Chrono Trigger's Proto Dome, the robot factory is cordoned off by the defense door lock system, "Zabie". As the ever-vigilant adventurer, you explore the factory and fight past mechanized sentries in search of the lock code. (What could Zabie's password be?!) Solving the riddle is simple, fun, and quite memorable... but that's the problem; If you've played this part, I'll bet you remember exactly what that password is. 8-)
  • $1Riddles and puzzles of this kind belong in RPG's for sure, but you never get the same challenge the second time through. You can skip the parts where clues are gathered, make a bee-line for that last door and just bash in the answer. You could go through the clue-gathering parts anyway just to preserve the intended gameplay, but it doesn't feel the same. You know you know the answer, so "doing it anyway" doesn't restore the fun very much because you know it's unnecessary.

    Cheaper still is the thrill you get from looking up the answer in a "walkthrough" that walks you through every step of the area. Walkthroughs can render riddles and puzzles completely ineffective. Most of us would only dare Google "Zabie password" as a last resort (Hey, sometimes a puzzle is way harder for me than it is for you... and vice versa :oops: ) but other players are just lazy and don't realize they are cheating themselves out of an enjoyable experience. Well, that's ok. We don't care about those people. If they want to devalue their experience, that's their choice. (Even though it's a STUPID choice! :evil: ) The problem is that the lazy players can also devalue the sense of accomplishment for the true adventurers:
    id you find the secret passage in the rich man's house? That was a tough one! I had to look all over South Figaro, but I finally figured out the passphrase. :)
h, yeah. I got past that part no problem. Pff! It's totally easy if you just have courage. :|
imgs=175,150]http://okayface.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/okay-face.jpg[/imgs]


How can we preserve the romance of puzzles? When will the lazy cheater meet his match? What the heck is a "Pedestrian Resistant Quest"? All these questions will be answered in the very next post! Stay tuned!
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Re: Quest mechanic idea: "Pedestrian Resistant Quest"

Postby MedicineStorm » Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:51 pm

Quests involving riddles suffer from the problem outlined above because all that the quest requires is an answer, and that answer is the same every time. The quest could require token quest items be gathered along with the clues, right? The player would have to go through all the clue gathering parts even if they knew the riddle's answer. :D ... :) ... :| ... :( Meh! That would work some times, but it might also just make the quest feel monotonous if the player feels like the game is forcing them through actions that aren't really necessary.

Well, what if the riddle solutions weren't always the same? What if each time you played through a game, the quests' answers were different than the time before? You might think you know the answer, but when you get to that last door that asks for the magical password, your response is rejected:HAT... is your favorite color?
h, I remember this from the last time I played this part. It's Blue. My favorite color is blue.
NCORRECT! You shall not pass!
eah, I- wait, what? What's going on? Hang on, maybe I missed something. I'll go back and actually check the clues... "pink"?! Huh, my favorite color is pink this time.
quot;this time?" You've never been through here before... "Pink" is correct, by the way. You may pass.o, I mean last time I played the game- err, when I was doing the quest with my other character- Never mind!

Since the answer changes randomly for each character, meta-gaming is reduced since the player can't use knowledge that only another character would have. However, a different answer requires a different riddle to go with it. It wouldn't work for the riddle to remain "What has a golden head, a golden tail, but no legs at all?" yet the answer changes from "A gold coin" to "A polar bear, because you're at the north pole".

Changing the entire riddle each time would require a rather large list of riddles. That's not impossible, so we might do that sometimes in the game... but it's a lot of work if every puzzle quest needs a fat list of random puzzles. For the most part we won't have to change the whole puzzle, just a few key parts of it. In the Magic Door dialogue above, the door can still ask about your favorite color. The answer could be any number of colors: Blue, red, green, pink, tangerine, chartreuse, whatever. The clues may change from "sad" (blue) to "envy" (green) or "rage" (red). Let's take it a step further and change where the clues are found: Instead of a scrap of paper on the bookshelf, it's a word carved into the lid of an empty barrel. Even if the player found the clue previously with a different character, they still have to search for it a bit since -although it might be in the same general area- it isn't in the same exact spot.

Puzzle solutions that change each time you play a new character preserves the puzzles. A player may know how to solve the puzzle from a previous character's experience, but they still don't have the solution without actually following the clues. This rewards "True Adventurers" by allowing them the advantage of being familiar with the puzzle even though it still needs solving. More importantly, the opposite may be true for the "Lazy Cheater" who tries to simply walk through the quest; The answer provided in a walkthrough may have been correct for the player who made the walkthrough, but it's unlikely to be the same correct solution for the player who is trying to walk through the quest (a.k.a. the "quest pedestrian"). Without bothering to understand the puzzle, the quest pedestrian will only be confused by a walkthrough that doesn't seem to work. Arguably, alternate walkthroughs could be made for each of the potential random solutions... but how is the quest pedestrian to know which of the multitude of walkthroughs are the right one for him? All the research and looking for tell-tale markers just to determine the appropriate walkthrough will quickly become harder than simply doing the puzzle. The quest becomes pedestrian-resistant since doing it the fun way is easier than looking up the answer on-line.

Here's another way to implement a Pedestrian Resistant Quest (PRQ): The corrupt mayor has hidden a treasure map in his vault. The vault requires a 5-digit combination to be dialed on giant stone tumblers. The only people that know the combination- other than the mayor- are the group of dwarves that were hired to construct the vault. Unfortunately, the 5 dwarves only constructed one tumbler each. Because of this, each dwarf has but one of the 5 digits. Typically, the player could use the combination that worked last time, or look up the correct combination in Utumno Power® Magazine... but this is a PRQ; The 5-digit vault combination has 100,000 possible permutations. Only a 0.001% chance of the magazine's solution being the same as the player's. Furthermore, each of the 5 dwarves live in different houses throughout the town each time. The clues that tell you which houses to visit will probably be faster than trying to figure out which walkthrough has the right houses mapped out. But wait! "Couldn't the player just dig up the treasure without going through any of this?" you're probably asking. After all, if a player remembers the location of the treasure, he doesn't need the map stored in the vault. :twisted: I'll bet you know what I'm going to say next....

Yep! You guessed it; The location of the treasure is random, too. It could be buried anywhere in the game world. Potentially millions of places for the player to dig before they would find it by chance. The game engine can randomly select a place for the treasure, then dynamically create a treasure map item with the correct dig site shown on it.

Not every quest has to be a PRQ. Even the quests that are PRQs don't have to have thousands of permutations. As few as 4 is plenty most of the time. If the player is not being a quest pedestrian, they won't even notice a difference; it will be just another neato puzzle quest. However, if the game only had 4 of these quests with 4 permutations each, it would require a walkthrough that accounts for 256 different ways the game could go. It's either that, or break up all the walkthrough by individual quest. Ugh! More walkthroughs for the quest pedestrians to wade through! :lol:
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Re: Quest mechanic idea: "Pedestrian Resistant Quest"

Postby MedicineStorm » Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:57 pm

CAVEAT: Even with my stance on walkthroughs (I'm against them, if you didn't know.) sometimes a player needs a way out when that one puzzle just doesn't mesh with their thought process. Don't get me wrong; I freaking love puzzles. I tore through Myst without slowing down, and I loved it. I start ripping through Riven with similar gusto, but suddenly I hit a wall. Try as I might, I just could NOT figure out that this stupid puddle of water:


is supposed to represent this symbol:



You're probably like "Seriously, dude? That seems pretty obvious..."
First of all, shut up! :x Secondly, I still have trouble seeing it to this day. I got all the other puzzles that stumped everyone else, but this one- just... aaggh! The point is, sometimes a puzzle just doesn't jive with a player. If there was no $2 for me, I would have had to stop playing the game. That isn't fun, but what is the alternative? There is no way to progress any further without that symbol... that freaking symbol!... Therefore, I think PRQs should give the player a way out.

One way to do this is make PRQs optional. If the player gets stuck on it and just can't seem to put the pieces together, that's ok. They can walk away from it. Since it is an optional side quest, abandoning it doesn't prevent the player from moving on to other quests or progressing with the game's story. Another way out is to have an alternate approach available; If you, the player, can't figure out the vault tumbler thing in the quest example above, you have the option of coercing the corrupt mayor to open the vault at knife-point . You get the treasure map, :) but now the mayor knows what you look like so every time you come near his town, he orders the guards to attack you. :(

...Or perhaps you find some crazy one-legged prospector that knows where the treasure is hidden, but he'll only show you the dig site if he gets to keep half the treasure. You don't need the map or the vault code, :) but you don't get as much loot out of the deal. :(

With just a few tweaks to some minor details of a puzzle, we can preserve the puzzle's integrity and enhance the game's replay value! Quest Pedestrians don't get to gloat, but those that are genuinely stumped can have an escape route. All it takes on the developer's part is a minimal amount of extra effort to tweak little details of each quest. :D

What you think, adventure fans? Comments? Questions? This plan is open for hole-poking, so poke away. I plan on demonstrating PRQs extensively in the upcoming interactivity demo. WOOHOO!
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Re: Quest mechanic idea: "Pedestrian Resistant Quest"

Postby Whiligo » Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:26 pm

I think this is a good idea. However, I think that the more auto-generated stuff that we have in the game, the more risk we take on regarding heading towards lame-o town. We just need to be careful to have the right balance. Diablo II, for example does the whole random thing with the map without the player actually noticing until they play for a second time. If we can implement this kind of gaming without it impacting the player in a negative way, at the same time as making fresh-ish gameplay for each player, then that is where we want to be.

I am also a fan of mini-games. I feel that these do exactly what you are talking about and since they are a measure of skill, they are not as monotonous and are slightly different every time. Yeah, if you are good at the game, then it will be easy, but it also might be pretty fun still. I am not saying all minigames, but maybe a mix of them along with the ideas you speak of such as dynamic riddles and self modifying side quests. Or even have the minigames as part of the dynamic sidequests.

I think that with some integration of these things we can successfully take some of the monotony out of repeat gameplay, as well as deter people from doing things like googling: "password for Bjonks cave troll"

Also, that Riven clue is bogus.
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Re: Quest mechanic idea: "Pedestrian Resistant Quest"

Postby Talon » Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:37 pm

Firstly I must say. Excellence. Great topic. I'm pretty sure our minds just exploded :D

So I was thinking:

1. For random quests and some special item quests we could make the findable item lock or unlock when their record shows the game engine completed or uncompleted tasks. Which would mean the player has one shot at it then it's gone. ie The player decided to dig every block of the yard because they knew it was there but they never got the map. Text bubble appears stating "Someone seems to have already dug a hole here" You could make that to where they can go back and unlock it but it can also be fun to be told no sometimes. Maybe they can find the item from someone later after hearing who to ask for it but the guy gives them a lesser item and they don't know it's lesser till they talk to their real friend David.

2.There could be a reward/badge system for evidence of a walkthroughs being read.You get marked a cheater or cheater points/marks for guessing one of the possible but unused answers. Then they still get a lesser item and are able to move on. The player doesn't get to know about it till they talk to a friend. Maybe cheater is too harsh perhaps they could be Skipped Points and everyone can see but the cheater. Someone who has the lazy game personality probably wouldn't care what it looked like but might try a harder go at it with restarted game later. Also if your message relaying the answer to a riddle/puzzle to someone appears in the chat it gets detected and gives the player Spoiler points (Make those red so that people know to not invite them if they hate spoilers). Then you could give the players that meticulously did it all special titles or the right to create their own epic title for their badge that all the other players get to see. After seeing how effective the nice points were on league of legends I'm a firm believer in positive reinforcement. Seems like fewer people want to be a jerk because people can see their good deeds badge and or go look at their record.

3.

4. Multiplayer idea. The chapters in the game could be used like different chat rooms where the players are randomly selected and directed to that server(unless they're in a group). People in that part of the game are directed to that chapter's chat room/server/map. That would spread them out and control the ambiance. So real people would be walking around like the towns people in Chrono Trigger. Each chapter could have its own limit if you only wanted a certain number of people which is what I meant by controlling the ambiance of the scene. ie there could be parts when the player is alone with the computer or say it's supposed to be a desolate desert so there are only one or two real strangers/players on there to talk to(places where you even get separated from your friends that were in your group) or say you want a small town so there are eight players allowed or it's a big new yorkish town so there are 30 players walking around making things look like some ridiculous bizarre and they have to weave through to find the game avatars. Where's Waldo by the way? Then you could have a special thing where players can go back to any chapter they want if they've completed the game with no skipped points. This would also give your game real prophets or psychics played by real people as they'll have to speak mysteriously if they don't want spoiler points which just one point will kick them out of the chapter. Perhaps if players go back they have an avatar that looks like a hobo or an old person to other people. For all I know it's COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS and could never work but it's just an idea I had.

Love the idea of a player being forever harassed by guards in a town because the player chose assault and robbery rather than charisma with the Mayer. And the guards drop super crap items.
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Re: Quest mechanic idea: "Pedestrian Resistant Quest"

Postby MedicineStorm » Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:27 am

color=#0000FF]...[/color] I think that the more auto-generated stuff that we have in the game, the more risk we take on regarding heading towards lame-o town.
I wholeheartedly agree. Although Procedurally Generated Content (PGC) allows for near-infinite replayability, there is no way it can match the cunning, clever, creativity of Awesome-person Generated Content (AGC). However, my spiel about Pedestrian Resistant Quests are specifically NOT procedurally generated. I am talking about quests that are carefully designed by us to be full of win. The only random parts of a PRQ are tiny details that do not effect the quality of the experience. PRQs are the same quest every time, just with little details changed around so the player can still experience it as if they haven't done it before. PGC like maps in Diablo II or randomly crated quests in the Keven Bacon style are features we will have as well, but those are different topics.
am also a fan of mini-games.
Yes! An excellent way to break the DPS mold. Like you say, it crosses player skill with character ability. And +1 to all that stuff you said.

@Talon's #1: Haha! Cool. A good tool for our quest-making toolbox. We can have that option for when the permutations don't guarantee the player will avoid walkthroughs or if the quest reward is highly critical. However, I am wondering if we want to allow the player to brute-force it sometimes; let the player find the buried treasure eventually even though they haven't actually done the quest. Maybe that's another form of "escape clause" for a puzzle that they can't seem to solve.

@Talon's #2: Interesting; reputation of "spoiler". L.o.L honor points is an excellent showcase for this kind of reinforcement.

@Talon's #3:

@Talon's #4: I've seen this a few times in a sprinkling of games. It is usually referred to as "Pick Up Groups". It seems pretty effective at increasing the fun for players who don't have a group of friends to play with all the time. You get to meet other players and learn new styles. The "District" player limit makes sense, too. I think it would be cool to have a remote chance of crossing paths with a random player out in some dungeon or desert you are exploring. I don't know if we can implement it, but the Spoiler-point restricted Living Prophet is a pretty dang cool idea!

color=#0000FF]...[/color] And the guards drop super crap items.
Hahaha! Yup! And only 1 XP.
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Re: Quest mechanic idea: "Pedestrian Resistant Quest"

Postby MedicineStorm » Tue May 14, 2013 10:19 am

dit: Looks like I posted in the wrong thread. I was talking about #3 of viewtopic.php?p=2004#p2004

@argitoth: I'm an idiot. You had it right and I got all overzealous on the topic organization. I put it back the way it should be. Sorry. :oops:
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